eu700, 6.5 mid bass driver, elemental designs

[third_shift|studios]

I bought 2, eu700 (http://edesignaudio.com/product.php?cid=15&pid=32&tab=Features&cur=USD) 6.5 mid-bass drivers [dual 4ohm] to replace the stock monsoon's in the sail panels from elemental designs. They are kinda "middy" really. Not deep, but i guess i'm just used to the 2x10's and these are no where near that. I was told that it's possible they are under powered. Maybe if i added a 100 or 200w amp w/ x-over it could deepin' them up?

They are about 4" deep and I think they touch the chassis back there, I was told by the installer that's not a problem and the bolts will keep them in place; they have like a 1/16" or 1/8" gap between the bolt rim and the car. Hope that's not effecting the sound? I tried to close the gap with dyna mat too. The foam lip protruded outward so much taht I had to cut the lowest speaker cover clip off. I was happy to see they weren't slapping against the inside of the speaker grills though!

If i add more power to them, i'm gonna have a shop fab me up some metal covers and have them about a 1/4" thick so the driver can jump around and not hit anything.

_diph

[daveb91]

So how do they sound vs the stock ones?

[MadSeason]

:Popcorn: somehow i think we'll have the same setup in a year or so

[MadSeason]

just have to get my amp and sub

[third_shift|studios]

So how do they sound vs the stock ones?

well, i'll tell you in about a week. I need to drill a hole through the b-pillar suppot beam b/c the eu700's are so thick that the port in the back is butted against the pillar and not getting any air to breath/thump. Once i drill the hole, it should give it more air and they should hit a bit harder. Right now they just sound kinda "middy" unless the volume is really low-then they sound really boomy; prolly b/c what little air is behind them is enough for them to breath at low volumes.


SO! check back later...

[third_shift|studios]

so, i drilled a hole through my b-pillars to help get more air to them. it seemed to work, they are way under powered though....i turn up the volume and the front mids get all scratchy, but the new subs in the sails seem to keep up until the stock amp just gives up...i'm thinkin about adding an amp to them so that the front mids don't have to make up so much low end...

[MadSeason]

Take a look at, http://www.usamps.com/ the AX Series I'm either going with their MultiChannel Amp to run 4 speakers + a stealth JL Sub, the EU's and Infinity Components, or Vacuum Hybrid for the components and EU's and then find another amp for the stealth JL sub i'm gona put in... I'm into sound quality since I'm a guitarist, and not shaking the bolts loose on the cars around me while I can barely hear the tunes... Still looking for a good HU also with a 6 or 12 disc changer, probably gona go alpine

[third_shift|studios]

wow, that site was :gay: i couldn't see past the homo-purple and yellow colors, man...sorry, you're a sound snob, i'm a web design-snob. I"m thinking to go with E.D.'s amp...i mean, same company, prolly the systems will work well together...only thing is i can't justify $260 on a 100watt amp :thinkin:

[blky2kz]

If im not mistaken, you need 2 ohm speakers to work with the monsoon system. They run more efficiently and dont stress the amps as much.

[daveb91]

the eu700 is a 2 ohm when you wire the dual 4ohm channels right.

[blky2kz]

i dont think so, they either come in 2 or 4 ohm. I may be wrong, but i think thats how it is.

[daveb91]

Says on there web site dual 2 or 4 ohm.

[blky2kz]

yea, thats what you can buy. A 2 ohm speaker or a 4 ohm speaker.

[ScrapMaker]

no you can buy either a dual two-ohm, or a dual four-ohm speaker...

meaning you can have one-ohm, two-ohm, four-ohm, or eight-ohm per speaker

and you wanna run these things in stereo in our cars.

so dual 4 is the way to go normally... and that's how the stock woofers are.

[third_shift|studios]

well it's come to this:

eu700's + 4 channel amp with front/rear crossovers so that the door mids don't try to keep up with the sail panels.

Elemental Designs makes a 4 channel specifically for this purpose; this is a direct quote from the E.D. Tech i've been chatting with.
To wire the 700s, you'll just wire the coils on each in parallel, and then connect each speaker to one of the rear channels, for a two ohm stereo final load. The NINe.4 has gain and crossover(low pass or high pass from 40-240hz, as well as full range) on each pair of channels(front and rear). It also has the ability to play in 'two channel mode', if you ever wanted to use the amp as a large two channel in the future, as well as being able to output 4 independent channels from 2 channels of input.
NINe.4, RMS Power @ 12.5v : 4 x 65 @4Ohm, 4 x 100 @2Ohm, 2 x 150@4Ohm

http://edesignaudio.com/Products/NINe4Amplifier/Gallery/DSCF0125.jpg

it's not a monsterous amp, but it looks pretty inteligent; only $235.00

[MadSeason]

Yea it's not bad, but this is why it's cheap.. you wound't want to run it with anything but the mids

http://edigras.iweb.bsu.edu/Public/eu.jpg

[MadSeason]

There's no filters on it, so basically if juce gets on the line from too much volume (in lamens terms) the speakers get fried, efficiency isn't acceptable, you want that up around 100, and without phase control any components you run off it will sound like ass... There are much better cleaner sounding amps out there for a few extra bucks that can make a world of difference in sound quality

[ScrapMaker]

it has basic filters... just the LPF and HPF... which cannot, obviously, be used at the same time... which sucks, but not many amps DO have that ability... you need a real cross-over for that...

but there's no reason that the nINE.4 would sound like ass with the eu-700s... unless you were pointing out that it can't really power them to their fullest if you use it in 4ch mode...

and maybe you could clarify as to why this amp specifically would fry the speakers... I really don't see anything different than other amps... other than the fact it's A/B instead of D... but I haven't really seen too many D-Class 4chs yet for some reason...

also maybe you could toss in your amp recommendation? cuz I don't think he's purchased it yet, maybe save him some trouble...

[third_shift|studios]

yeah mad, tell us whats up...and no more purple websites :lol:

[MadSeason]

God fucking damn it! I typed this shit out twice and it crashed... now i'm being smart and doing this in word first so I can copy and paste it...

In a nutshell, the amp is fine for the EU-700s, but when adding components up front to be used with the amp you'll run into a clipping issue. There's no filter on it to stop the DC voltage from going to the speakers, which in the long run will dammage them.

Personally I recommend nothing but the best, US Amps, Butler, JL, Zapco is a great one, you could look at directed, crossfire, hifonics, rockford fosgate... there's a lot out there, just have to really look around

[ScrapMaker]

Your list looks fine, except the Directed/Hifonics part... their 2005+ stuff is total crap...

also, now PPI, and Orion suck bad... since they were purchased by Directed...

personally I went through two Brutus 1605Ds before I settled on the nINE.1... which was much stronger and cooler than the Brutus...

maybe their old stuff was okay, but sure as hell isn't anymore...

now, back to the nINE.4... what specifically do you not like about it?? I'm actually very curious because I am planning on buying one to run the 6500s in the doors... the only reason I'm getting the 4ch, is it's more powerful than the nINE.2 for just a tiny bit more... then, sometime down the road, I was hoping to go active...

but I just don't understand what you mean... are you saying that, when you have the subs on the rear channels, and the components on the front channels, that you have a bleeding issue?

I have a year 2001 Autotek 4160... 4x160wrms@2ohm... which I have used to power components up front, and subs in the rear... never heard any bleeding or anything... is there just some quality issue with these eD amps that I'm not aware of?

thanks for elaborating, it helps everyone here...

[MadSeason]

It's basically a good mid amp or a component amp. I don't like the variable crossover... Wouldn't want to use it for both a woofer and a component, now if you're using all their speakers for your setup there's not much to argue there. I'd personally only use it to either power mids or highs, not split the duty. It fucks with the original sound curve to much IMO. I'm a guitarist and have a very tuned ear, so it's not my cup of tea to use it for anything more than an amp for their mids.

[ScrapMaker]

so you're saying, when you split the amp into front and rear, and say, use a HPF in the front, and a LPF in the rear, the sound becomes less accurate than if you were to use HPF on front and rear?

[MadSeason]

sounds becomes less acurate than using a HU that sends out 4 seperate channels, mids left right, highs left right... amp doesnt support it, using HPF for both would totally disreguard the mid range in those EU700s

[ScrapMaker]

oh, I think I understand... the problem you're talking about would be solved if you had a decent headunit right? I always run my amps on flat and use the crossovers in my decks...

I still wish that headunits would allow you to set a maximum and minimum on frequency response for each channel... I haven't seen an amp, or deck that allows that... would be handy for a simple mid-range application.

[MadSeason]

Yea, and if there is a high end model that allows for that, it's going to be very very pricey. Pioneers and Alpines are good for having 3 sets of RCA outs, Highs, Mids, Subs... I don't know if you could send a high and a mid though this amp though, there's not enough info on the site

[ScrapMaker]

oh well see that's what I don't understand... I've NEVER seen a 4ch that's different than this... maybe the THD parameters or whatever... but my brother has a memphis audio 4ch and it's the same, you can set it to 2ch, 3ch, or 4ch, and there are two sets of HPF and LPF filters... so you can do it as a pair, or two pairs...

Is there some inherent problem with the nINE.4 that makes it worse than any other 4ch amp? I've used my AutoTek 4ch to power subs off the rear, and highs off the front, with no problem... both the front channels and the rear channels get the same audio source... so I don't see why there would be a problem...

[MadSeason]

oh well see that's what I don't understand... I've NEVER seen a 4ch that's different than this... maybe the THD parameters or whatever... but my brother has a memphis audio 4ch and it's the same, you can set it to 2ch, 3ch, or 4ch, and there are two sets of HPF and LPF filters... so you can do it as a pair, or two pairs...

Is there some inherent problem with the nINE.4 that makes it worse than any other 4ch amp? I've used my AutoTek 4ch to power subs off the rear, and highs off the front, with no problem... both the front channels and the rear channels get the same audio source... so I don't see why there would be a problem...

to do it right you'd run your highs and mids off seperate amps, or a multi 5 channel amp.

Do you have actual Mids like the EU-700's in the sale panel? and then your highs up front? that's where the problem lies, you're sending a signal to the mids that it can't play... It would be like sending the sub signal to your components, wont sound to good and hurt the speakers.

[MadSeason]

Even with our stock system, the only thing the amp is used for is the woofers in the doors and sails. The highs are comming straight off the HU

[third_shift|studios]

are the rear deck from the amp or the HU?

[MadSeason]

are the rear deck from the amp or the HU?

speakers in the hatch are the HU along with the front tweeter

[ScrapMaker]

I don't see the problem... you simply select LPF on the amp for the eu-700s... since they are subwoofers, essentially...


for the components, you can easily give them a non-filtered signal... they have their own advanced crossover network... but you could still HPF if you wanted... depends on how the woofers sound in the doors...

if you wanted to get more specific with the eu-700s, you'd have to build a cross-over for them, if you wanted a range of, say 80hz-150hz... but most people run them with a simple LPF and they sound great...

why would you need a 5ch amp? I feel like I'm missing a huge part of the conversation or something...

specifically, this is what I plan on doing.

-buying a nINE.4 to power the 6500s, just in case I want to run them active in the future.
-using my existing 4ch to power the eu-700s, and the CL-41 4" components for the hatch
-using my existing nINE.1 to power two 12" brahmas/XXXs in the hatch...

the only thing that bothers me, is that I have to decide WHERE the eu-700s get their signal from.. do I run them off the rear RCA output, and just send it out flat from the headunit, which will limit my control of the hatch speakers, or do I send it the same signal as the subwoofers get, (which makes sense, seeing how they ARE mini subwoofers.)

I think I would use the subwoofer-output, and if they vibrated too much, I would build a crossover to limit the frequencies until it stopped...

[MadSeason]

I don't see the problem... you simply select LPF on the amp for the eu-700s... since they are subwoofers, essentially...


for the components, you can easily give them a non-filtered signal... they have their own advanced crossover network... but you could still HPF if you wanted... depends on how the woofers sound in the doors...

if you wanted to get more specific with the eu-700s, you'd have to build a cross-over for them, if you wanted a range of, say 80hz-150hz... but most people run them with a simple LPF and they sound great...

why would you need a 5ch amp? I feel like I'm missing a huge part of the conversation or something...

specifically, this is what I plan on doing.

-buying a nINE.4 to power the 6500s, just in case I want to run them active in the future.
-using my existing 4ch to power the eu-700s, and the CL-41 4" components for the hatch
-using my existing nINE.1 to power two 12" brahmas/XXXs in the hatch...

the only thing that bothers me, is that I have to decide WHERE the eu-700s get their signal from.. do I run them off the rear RCA output, and just send it out flat from the headunit, which will limit my control of the hatch speakers, or do I send it the same signal as the subwoofers get, (which makes sense, seeing how they ARE mini subwoofers.)

I think I would use the subwoofer-output, and if they vibrated too much, I would build a crossover to limit the frequencies until it stopped...

with what you're planning on doing there is no issue

[ScrapMaker]

so, the only problem is if you were actually trying to use the eu-700s as MID-RANGE woofers? because you can't limit the floor, and the ceiling frequency on most amplifiers?

[MadSeason]

so, the only problem is if you were actually trying to use the eu-700s as MID-RANGE woofers? because you can't limit the floor, and the ceiling frequency on most amplifiers?

the nine.4 will power them as midrange speakers just fine when you send it the low signal... the problem is running components with them on the other 2 channels

[ScrapMaker]

okay so I guess I still don't understand why you can't set the rear channels to LPF, put the EU-700s on them, then put the components on the front, with no filter whatsoever... cuz that's what they want... or just HPF them at like 50+hz

you're saying that the signal bleeds over from front to rear or something?

[MadSeason]

Gona try and make a simple example here.....

Voltage always follows the path of least resistance in any circuit. Think of Voltage as water and the paths to the speakers as pipes.

Now the components you want to run with no filter... they have a bigger pipe
The Mids are on LPF filter and have smaller pipe for the water to run.

The amp will always push roughly the same amount of power. Power is water flowing through the pipes and you'll get more of it emptying through the components than you would the rears because all pipes are not equal. Too much power going to the components isn't a good thing, and if you set no filter on all 4 speakers the EU700s are getting a signal they can't handle... the pipe is brining to much water to them so they will break...

make sense? Nothing bleeds, but it can cause clipping with a setup like this which actually sends DV voltage down the line that can harm the speaker... some passive crossovers can prevent this but aren't built into the amp. The best sound comes from all paths being equal, 5 channel amps are good at keeping the highs/lows/and sub channels seperate. 4 channel amps, which are notorious for being 2 channel compatiable don't have good quality when you're pushing out two different loads. Some people really hear the difference, some never notice until their speakers sound fuzzy, and at that point they're past 15% distortion comming though them, because the human ear can't hear anything less than that.

[third_shift|studios]

ok, now that i get...

[ScrapMaker]

I could have sworn that each channel had it's own bank of mosfet amps, and each bank has feeds off the independent cross-over for the front and rear, and each cross-over network receives the same, un-altered, flat RCA input, internally...

now I don't know about the speaker receiving the DC voltage.. that's interesting

but, basically, you are saying that the 4ch amp wants to 'even' out the front and rear loads? sounds like that with your water pipe analogy, but, for the longest time, I had a pair of 6x9s on the rear of my 4ch, and kappa plates on the front channels... the kappa plates were always HPF. Now, since I tinker with my amps, a lot, trying to tune them and whatnot, I can remember at least a dozen times where I switched the 6x9s from LPF, to HPF, and flat... without it affecting the front plates whatsoever...

I even put the front plates on flat a few times, and the 6x9s never magically got louder... I didn't think this was even possible since on a 4ch amp, the front and rear (or channels 1 and 2,) are completely separate... are you just saying that they share the same power supply, which is limiting the overall output... and not the actual capability of each mosfet bank for each channel?


but, in the end, from your comments, it seems that, even if one set of speakers DID get more power, then all it would take was some common sense to lower the gains and be smart about it...

one thing I will agree on, is that some people will drive around with their speakers clipping all damn day, and not care... sounds like crap to me, and what I do is turn my headunit to maximum volume, and slowly turn the amp gain up, until I get a hint of distortion, then I turn it down about 15-20% below distortion, because I know you can't always hear it...

and this is one hell of a thread... this is the first I've ever heard of this inherent 4ch amp problem... maybe someone should make a sticky to recommend a good 5ch amp instead of all these separate amp setups...

[MadSeason]

Yup, just be smart about the gain... and remember you won't be able to push all the power they have to them to get the SPL (sound quality) out of it