Patriot heads and cam feedback?

[SKULLZ]

Has anybody heard anything about the patriot performance cam and head set up in the december '04 issue of chevy high performance? The articel boasts 522 hp and 466tq at the fly wheel. I was curious what rwhp i would be looking at, I figured the 15-20% loss but was looking for some real world numbers. Sorry i couldnt find the link to the articel.


Thanks

[Sarge]

I'm running Pat heads and comp cam setup...putting down over 400 to the wheels....I know they are having a helluva sale right now.....damn fine folks at Patriot and great product.....
http://ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1288

[SKULLZ]

Thanks Sarge, what kind of intake manifold are you using with your set up? Did you go to a bigger throttle body as well?

[Sarge]

LSX Fast Intake and Shaner Ported TB (to be picked up tommorow).....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/sgtgeek/HeatJobSmall.jpg

[SKULLZ]

cool set up, thanks Sarge

[MadSeason]

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0504_test/ I think this is the article you were looking at

[seriousblack]

New to this; Anybody out there have any technical expertise in regards to Performance heads and flow numbers vs. Driveabilty-my car is used for street/strip duty. I'm contemplating buying the new GMPP LS6 "CNC" Ported Heads part # 88958665, they have the same port volumes as their Race only heads; 250cc Intake/ 85cc Exhaust "BUT" they maintain the stock production 65cc Chambers @ 10.5:1compression ratio. I currently have an SLP Cam .576/571" lift, 234/228 @ .050 duration w/113 LSA with Comp Cams Valvetrain upgrades; Pro-Magnum Roller Rockers, Beehive springs, Titanium retainers,Magnum Pushrods. SLP said I need ported heads to get the full potential of the cam's performance. Thanks in advance! :)

[Rhino21149]

The articel boasts 522 hp and 466tq . . . I figured the 15-20% loss but was looking for some real world numbers. Sorry i couldnt find the link to the articel.


Thanks

My experience is that F- and Y-bodiues have closer to 11-12% losses to the rear wheels with a 6-speed, about 14% with an automatic.

I have a set of Patriot IIIs with porting and polishing by Justin Engineering, they were tested in GMHP or some mag at 540 RWHP on a 5.7 liter, at something like 7200 RPM, but that was very very extreme, non street engine.

I run a Crowler high-ramp custom design/grind cam (they'll design and grind to your spec for undonly about 3 times the cost of a standard cam) that is 228/235-.590/.615, (value timing is designed for a SC) that is a bit more extreme than their standard Stage III. Naturally aspirated, the engine put out 495 RWHP at 6300, but remember that is a 427 cubes.

I've seen the standard Patriot package deliver 425-445 RWHP depending on other mods, simply as a bolt-on for several C5s (a local shop ran a special, they had about 6 takers) -- which is about 480-495 HP flywheel, al with headers, cats and full cat-back exhaust, and fully street legal.

[seriousblack]

Thanks for the info on the Patriot heads i'll look into those if the LS6 "CNC" Ported heads are too $$$$$ i'm sure they will be alot considering they also have Hollowed stain steel Intake valves and sodium filled exhaust valves. :)

[Rhino21149]

Thanks for the info on the Patriot heads i'll look into those if the LS6 "CNC" Ported heads are too $$$$$ i'm sure they will be alot considering they also have Hollowed stain steel Intake valves and sodium filled exhaust valves. :)

My son has my old '98 Camaro, which I gave him d knows more about cars than I do and frankly I could not keep the Vette at the point it is without his knowledge. He's put in a 408 FE LS6 from Horsepower engineering in Houston, 11/25:1 C.R. that puts out more HP normally aspirated than my C5R did normally asipirated. Not cilvilized or really easy to drive, but brutually efficient.

He put AFR big-port heads on it instead of the Pat IIIs. They weren't avaialble when I put together my engine -- only the AFR small port heads were available so I went with the Pat IIIs at the time.

The big-port AFRs for the Ls engines are awesome. I'm not sure that they flow better than the Pat IIIs I have after the Justin Engineering porting, but I think Justin is no longer in business so you can't get them anymore, butthe AFRs have a full 1/2 inch of deck thickness - bulletproof if you supercharger or nitrous, or just worry like I do . . .

I'd recommend looking at them. They actually cost less than the heads I got by the time I paid for the porting and polishing, too.

[Tonys99RamAir]

I have always wanted to know about these heads as well, I just put my cam in now I need a set of heads to work with it, might give these guys a call, $1400 for a set of heads is not bad.--Tony

[seriousblack]

Remember You Get what you pay for $$$$$$ I 've heard of problems with there castings and returns. Check out the AFR LS1 Mongoose Heads @ SpeedInc.com. I don't know the pricing but i am looking into it getting them the flow numbers are impressive.

[Mr. Luos]

Just got my heads back from Patriot.
They did a ton for me. I sent them back to have them milled, and they put new springs on, new bigger valves, and milled them .020".
Great service, and the heads flow 314/228 at .600". Not bad at all for $1100 I think it is.
From what I understand, Patriot has had problems in the past, but they have done what they can to correct those problems.

[silverTA2002]

Patriot heads are a decent head, and a low price leader.

For $400 more, I decided to go with TEA 1.5 heads. They should be here tomorrow.

I didn't want to take any chances. TEA always seems to perform. Patriot is kinda hit or miss sometimes.

[seriousblack]

Thanks for the update -good to know they improved if I decide to go with the Patriots instead of the LS1 Mongoose heads by AFR. Especially if you got them for $1100.00 !!!

[Mr. Luos]

If I had the money, I would have gone with AFR hands down. Might still someday.....years away.

They are good heads. The work is good, the customer service is GREAT. For the price, can't be beat.

[seriousblack]

How do those Head flow numbers effect your car's low end Torque and horsepower for everyday driving? (If you use it as a daily driver)

[Sarge]

Just got my heads back from Patriot.
They did a ton for me. I sent them back to have them milled, and they put new springs on, new bigger valves, and milled them .020".
Great service, and the heads flow 314/228 at .600". Not bad at all for $1100 I think it is.
From what I understand, Patriot has had problems in the past, but they have done what they can to correct those problems.
So often we forget it is metal. Nothing more. Who sells you the metal the cheapest is so often the "winner".... So when things are not 'right"....customer service is the winner.....Patriot and Gunner has that hands down.....IMHO....

[Liquifire]

So often we forget it is metal. Nothing more. Who sells you the metal the cheapest is so often the "winner".... So when things are not 'right"....customer service is the winner.....Patriot and Gunner has that hands down.....IMHO....
I agree with some of what you wrote but would just like to add that although the metal itself may be the same, a lot goes into the assembly and workmanship of the metal. These are moving parts after all, so it isn't as if all heads are exactly the same. Not to mention R+D......fwiw.

[Rhino21149]

I had really good results with Patriot III heads on my vette, but then although they looked good from Patriot I had them polished by Justin Engineering and then the vale seats checked and chambers cc'd and so forth by the builder: still, I am very satsified with Patriot.

My son and I have AFR CNC's big-port heads on our Camaro's 408 LS6 and they =are clearly great heads, but as delivered they really needed to be polished to finish them up. The CNC left roughly 1/8 inch flat "ripples" insides of the ports that we have polished and moothed off before mounting them. They fit great and make good #s.

[RED98WS6]

I've been wondering about PP heads myself. The price tag is tempting. And I'm sure that they are good heads for the money. But some of the guys over at ls1tech.com are putting down 430...440...and even 450 at the wheels with the AFR 205 mongoose heads. I have yet to see PP heads get numbers even close to those. Forget flow numbers, as far as I'm concerned, they are meaningless.

[Sarge]

I've been wondering about PP heads myself. The price tag is tempting. And I'm sure that they are good heads for the money. But some of the guys over at ls1tech.com are putting down 430...440...and even 450 at the wheels with the AFR 205 mongoose heads. I have yet to see PP heads get numbers even close to those. Forget flow numbers, as far as I'm concerned, they are meaningless.
Yes...some get all caught up in who's heads flow better than others and you are correct...that is not the sole determining factor...Rhino brought up a point that I have observed myself....Patriot's finished product is second to none in quality.....

[RED98WS6]

Yes...some get all caught up in who's heads flow better than others and you are correct...that is not the sole determining factor...Rhino brought up a point that I have observed myself....Patriot's finished product is second to none in quality.....


I might take a closer look at the PP heads. It sounds like they've come a long way in quality. I just wish someone would post up some graphs of what these heads will do...:yup:

[Sarge]

I might take a closer look at the PP heads. It sounds like they've come a long way in quality. I just wish someone would post up some graphs of what these heads will do...:yup:
I've got my dyno runs from last wek posted up here on ls1.com in the nitrous section....I posted N/A and on the juice....hell...email ol Gunnar...tell him you want charts/graphs and overheads....I don't blame you one bit.....here is Gunnars email.....tell him ol Sarge said howdy... Gunnar@Patriot-Performance.com

[seriousblack]

Flow numbers are important to me. I need to consider getting the most performance @ the track without sacrificing Driveability for street duty l I.E. low end & Mid range Torque & Power. The AFR Mongoose heads sounds like a winner to me !! Thanks brother :)

[Rhino21149]

You talk about serious numbers -- Just remember that what started this thread was talk about an article where a patrio heads a and cam package delivered over 520 plus.

When you hear of other people who get a lot less you have to ask just what they had Patriot do: like almost all these companies, they sell various levels of head work porting along with stock or upgraded valve size and some of those lesser quoted #s might be for the lower cost heads or where the owner went with some other cam than recommended.

[seriousblack]

I understand and agree i.e. Stage I, II, III Heads. It all boils down to what the car will be used for and how much power you want to make within whatever parameters you set. AND HOW MUCH CASH $$$$ you have....... :D

[Rhino21149]

You know, while it really is all about money, you can find bargains. I spent more than my ZO6 cost new on the supercharged 427 C5R I put in it -- and a year of hassles that caused me to nearly give up a couple of times until I got it sorted out so it would behave like a real car. I went top grade everywhere and just never even thought of short cuts. On the other hand, nothing as civilized and streetable can touch it, and I love it now that its done (but there were times I was sure mad as hell).

But my son and I have less than $15 in the FE 408 in our 98 Camaro and the engine is putting down 600 RWHP with only a 75-100 shot of nitrous and we haven't really tapped into it. This is much more the hot rod spirit- try to get the most bang for the buck.

One thing I do believe is: ask the manufacturer and stick with his recommendations. Crowler made most of my internals and ended up making a custom grind cam for me that did wonders.

I figure Patriot probably knows hows to spend your money well if you ask . . . the mistake would be to buy and mix and match yourself -- they have to know more than you. So if you go that route, I'd tell them what you want and then follow what they tell you.

[RED98WS6]

I understand and agree i.e. Stage I, II, III Heads. It all boils down to what the car will be used for and how much power you want to make within whatever parameters you set. AND HOW MUCH CASH $$$$ you have....... :D


Or as someone pointed out above, how much cash do you want to spend and not necessarily how much you have. For me, drag racing is all about getting more bang for your buck.

[RED98WS6]

Flow numbers are important to me. I need to consider getting the most performance @ the track without sacrificing Driveability for street duty l I.E. low end & Mid range Torque & Power. The AFR Mongoose heads sounds like a winner to me !! Thanks brother :)


I guess what I am saying about flow numbers is that I don't trust them, especially if they are from the head manufacturer regardless of their reputation. I pay more attention to dyno charts than anything. And even that can be misleading...:yup:

[Liquifire]

I guess what I am saying about flow numbers is that I don't trust them, especially if they are from the head manufacturer regardless of their reputation. I pay more attention to dyno charts than anything. And even that can be misleading...:yup:
if all things are equal......how can dyno charts be misleading????

[MadSeason]

I've been watching this thread and it's getting pretty popular, for anyone who's interested I'm currently getting Patriot LS6 heads, 59cc on my hawk. I had 346 rwhp on just a cam, ls6 intake, and catback. I'm adding a ported throttle body, headers, and ORY to the setup along with the heads and getting a dyno tune. Will have numbers soon hopefully. The car has been in a shop for 2 weeks now awaiting the arrival of the heads. Money wasn't an issue for me, I could of went with any head and I chose these after seeing how well they've done in the last 6 months. I'll post up the dyno numbers by Saturday if I'm lucky, cross your fingers for me.

[JMBLOWNWS6]

Well since I just ordered a set and got them cheaper new for less than 1050 shipped here is my impressions. I needed a 72cc head for my forged 347. I ran into a deal that offered mt free Ross pistons and Free eagle rods. So I did some work for the guy and got all the parts. Now that being said I would have to lower my compression for a blower application. I went ahead a bought the LQ9 patriots stage III with the biggest intake and exhaust valves they offer. Now that fact being I couldnt get a stage 3 head from anyone for less than 2k was a factor. The other 1k goes towards my new fuel system. But for the price and after talking to patriot for a bit I am satisfied that they will perform. Its a two week lead time. But for those who dont have a ton of $ this is a fair deal. Plain and simple. Yes you get what you pay for. Depends on what your goals are.

[Rhino21149]

I guess what I am saying about flow numbers is that I don't trust them ...:.

I agree. Flow #s are worth paying attention to, but alot of people suddenly seem to be obsessing over them. Flow DOES matter, but so do other things: the amount of swirl (which, by its nature, is hard to get in combination with high flow #s), the amount of flow at small openings (as the valve starts to open and the acceleration of the intake pulse, and the exhaust flow (which people measure but you seldom see anyone worrying about it: on SC applications, particularly those with a Roots or Screw (positive displacement) type blower, it matters a lot more since the intake WILL flow, regardless of its limits.

If it was just about flow, then when you get the AFR heads, get the big port (225): They flow test better than the 205. But they give no low end torque in a small block (6 liters or less).

It's also worth considering that nearly everyone is taking each manufacturer's word for their flow #s. Who knows if, how, and how well they tested them? Tests and testing methods vary, and flow testing not something that every shop can do, and certainly not a test that is easy to repeat consistently at different sites run by different technicians. One man's 335 might be anothers 322.

[seriousblack]

Thanks for the suggestion re; Contacting the manufacturer (Good Idea) I'll call SLP and ask them what heads (if they have a preference and port volumes they recomend using for the cam I installed from them. I remember them telling me the particular cam I ordered required modified heads -Thanks :)

[eddierox]

Check these links out for a good understanding of whats involved for good aspiration for your desired applications.

http://www.compcams.com/catalog/

http://chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/86218/

http://www.themotorbookstore.com/ls1...8-engines.html

http://www.motorsporttech.com/fbody_engine01.asp

[MadSeason]

I've been watching this thread and it's getting pretty popular, for anyone who's interested I'm currently getting Patriot LS6 heads, 59cc on my hawk. I had 346 rwhp on just a cam, ls6 intake, and catback. I'm adding a ported throttle body, headers, and ORY to the setup along with the heads and getting a dyno tune. Will have numbers soon hopefully. The car has been in a shop for 2 weeks now awaiting the arrival of the heads. Money wasn't an issue for me, I could of went with any head and I chose these after seeing how well they've done in the last 6 months. I'll post up the dyno numbers by Saturday if I'm lucky, cross your fingers for me.

Well the results are in, with a starting point of
346 RWHP and 323 Torque I gained 69HP and 68 Torque Netting
415 RWHP and 391 Torque

I'm pretty satisfied considering it was a 91 degree day in the shop and I didn't get to pick the cam out, it came in the car when I bought it. It's the SLP 51013, not the newest but gets the job done along with my purchase of the Patriot Heads (LS6 2.02 1.57 59CC 11:1) and Hooker Headers I'd say it's a pretty nice gain. The A/F is spot on and power under the curve is awesome. Sure does feel good even with the stock gears.