Octane rating for E85?

[stonebreaker]

Like the title says, anyone know the octane rating for the new E85 gasohol mix? It dawns on me that if E85 has an octane rating anywhere close to methanol, it would make a heck of a race fuel.

Going forced induction would also enable you to stay dual-fuel, since you could adjust the boost depending on what you were running in the tank...

And can you run E85 in a normal gasoline car? Is it as corrosive as methanol? Any special seal materials needed, stuff like that?

[jimbo98z]

It's 87 Octane. Here's a good website that has a lot of good info about corrosion:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/e85toolkit/specs.html

[crimking]

E85 is actually running between 100-105 Octane. I'm hearing that the Indy Racing League is going to be running it within the next few years.

You are going to see some more corrosion but this is not subtantial when compared to the savings at the pump. All this and we haven't even touched what using this fuel would mean for both the American Economy and the war on terror.

Personally, I think the best way to shut these terrorists down is to quit giving them money. Sorry, had to throw in my 0.2c. I really belive that ethanol can solve our fuel problems. Here are a couple of other web sites related to the subject. Good info.

http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php

http://www.iowacorn.org/ethanol/ethanol_5a.html

[jimbo98z]

Hmm. Maybe I'm just confused.
crimking: I've also thought of this as an at least partial solution to the "fuel crisis" people who are saying we're going to run out of petroleum in however many years.

[FasstChevys]

It's 87 Octane. Here's a good website that has a lot of good info about corrosion:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/e85toolkit/specs.html

As above, absolutely wrong. E85 is about 105 octane.

[FasstChevys]

E85 is actually running between 100-105 Octane. I'm hearing that the Indy Racing League is going to be running it within the next few years.

You are going to see some more corrosion but this is not subtantial when compared to the savings at the pump. All this and we haven't even touched what using this fuel would mean for both the American Economy and the war on terror.

Personally, I think the best way to shut these terrorists down is to quit giving them money. Sorry, had to throw in my 0.2c. I really belive that ethanol can solve our fuel problems. Here are a couple of other web sites related to the subject. Good info.

http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php

http://www.iowacorn.org/ethanol/ethanol_5a.html

The IRL will be 10% ethanol blended fuel this year, and 100% ethanol next year.

Another good site to visit:

www.ethanolrfa.org

[FasstChevys]

Hmm. Maybe I'm just confused.
crimking: I've also thought of this as an at least partial solution to the "fuel crisis" people who are saying we're going to run out of petroleum in however many years.

I agree, it is a partial solution, but is definitely not the entire answer, however, if cellulosic methods on producing ethanol become more efficient(and cheaper), it could become a bigger answer than mostly using corn to produce it.

[crimking]

Ethanol is produced by the fermentation of plant sugars. Not just corn but all kinds of plants. Corn is used primarily because it has an added value. The corn itself can be harvested then the left over husks and stalks are harvested for the production of ethanol. Fuel for me and my car all in one. And then all the extra cash generated by our farmers. Right now most of them are living off of government programs that subsidise their shortcomings from crops. All this ='s more $ for farmers, less $ spent by the government, less $ spent on taxes by us. More smiles on my face.

Just like any other product, this probably will not be the cheapest solution initially. The refining processes WILL get better though. And sooner rather than later. Everyone has something to complain about, be it gas prices or Iraq or political policies in general. I see this as one way all of us can really address both short and long term issues. Once again, my 0.2c.

[stonebreaker]

This is good. That means we can start thinking about running 10-15 lbs of boost on a stock engine.

[FasstChevys]

Ethanol is produced by the fermentation of plant sugars. Not just corn but all kinds of plants. Corn is used primarily because it has an added value. The corn itself can be harvested then the left over husks and stalks are harvested for the production of ethanol. Fuel for me and my car all in one. And then all the extra cash generated by our farmers. Right now most of them are living off of government programs that subsidise their shortcomings from crops. All this ='s more $ for farmers, less $ spent by the government, less $ spent on taxes by us. More smiles on my face.

Just like any other product, this probably will not be the cheapest solution initially. The refining processes WILL get better though. And sooner rather than later. Everyone has something to complain about, be it gas prices or Iraq or political policies in general. I see this as one way all of us can really address both short and long term issues. Once again, my 0.2c.

Long story short. You really haven't done any research in this field. Explain the "added valeue". Do you have a clue? Just by listening to your banter, I really don't think you do. Explain to me how many "plants" that ethanol is currently being produced by at an efficient manner in the United States??? List the "Main" feed stocks in the production of ethanol industry today? How many plants today are producing ethanol from the 'left over husks and stalks"? I'd be very interested in your answer. My next question to you is this. "How much money per barrel does it take to produce a barrell of gasoline, and how much does it take to produce a barrel of ethanol?" It takes more money to produce/process a barrell of gasoline than it does a barrel of ethanol. Which one has a bigger subsidy????????? Answer is: GASOLINE!!!!!! Big surprise!!!!!!!!!!

Ask yourselves this: Who's in bed with who????????????


I'd rather give my money to the American farmer than the F*ckers over in Iraq!!!

[NE98LS1]

doesn't a car have to be designated OK for "flex fuel" in order to run E85? i thought only newer cars were able to run E85?

[Liquifire]

This is good. That means we can start thinking about running 10-15 lbs of boost on a stock engine.
Even if the fuel allowed this...........How the hell would it hold together at stock compression rate?

[crimking]

WTF? You start out arguing that I'm wrong. Then by the end of your post you are championing my cause. If you would like to learn more about the production of ethanol than the info I have provided, I suggest you review the reference sites that I provided earlier. It seems that you may be the one without a clue. Or maybe you just post to post. My moneys on a little of both.

Oh, and if you're going to try and quote me, it's value. Not valeue.

Long story short. You really haven't done any research in this field. Explain the "added valeue". Do you have a clue? Just by listening to your banter, I really don't think you do. Explain to me how many "plants" that ethanol is currently being produced by at an efficient manner in the United States??? List the "Main" feed stocks in the production of ethanol industry today? How many plants today are producing ethanol from the 'left over husks and stalks"? I'd be very interested in your answer. My next question to you is this. "How much money per barrel does it take to produce a barrell of gasoline, and how much does it take to produce a barrel of ethanol?" It takes more money to produce/process a barrell of gasoline than it does a barrel of ethanol. Which one has a bigger subsidy????????? Answer is: GASOLINE!!!!!! Big surprise!!!!!!!!!!

Ask yourselves this: Who's in bed with who????????????


I'd rather give my money to the American farmer than the F*ckers over in Iraq!!!

[FasstChevys]

WTF? You start out arguing that I'm wrong. Then by the end of your post you are championing my cause. If you would like to learn more about the production of ethanol than the info I have provided, I suggest you review the reference sites that I provided earlier. It seems that you may be the one without a clue. Or maybe you just post to post. My moneys on a little of both.

Oh, and if you're going to try and quote me, it's value. Not valeue.

Ok, first of all, I didn't intend this to become a flame war. I was just wanting to point out some facts. Just so you know, I've been in the ethanol industry for what will be 12 years in April. I really do know the "ins and outs" of what is going on. The production of ethanol by using cellulosic methods is being researched and most likely will be in large scale production someday, but it will take some time. As you stated before, "ethanol is produced by the fermentation of plant sugars." Not really. Ethanol is produced by the fermentation of the sugars themselves. The way that ethanol is produced from corn is that the starch in the corn is converted to fermentable sugars by using a certain type of enzyme, kind of like what your body does with starch. The "added value" that you were talking about is how farmers get more money out of their corn. They bring the shelled corn to the plant at market value, and then the money that the ethanol plant makes is paid back in a dividend which is what you were referring to as "added value". Just for your information, right now today, the 'energy balance' of an ethanol plant is what is termed an 'energy winner'. Which means the output of energy leaving the plant, is more than what it takes to produce it. The last numbers I have seen is that for every btu(usually natural gas) put into an ethanol plant, 1.67 btu's comes out the back end.

When I was mentioning earlier about "how many plants in the US are producing ethanol efficiently?" I didn't word it right, my bad. What I meant was, how many plants are producing ethanol from husks and stalks in the US as their main feedstock? Today, there isn't one. At least not on a large scale other than maybe some pilot plants doing some research. Again, I wasn't meaning to ruffle any feathers.

[FasstChevys]

doesn't a car have to be designated OK for "flex fuel" in order to run E85? i thought only newer cars were able to run E85?

www.e85fuel.com

This site gives some good info on vehicles that can run on E85. I do believe you can convert almost any vehicle to run E85. I have a '68 Camaro that I'm going to convert over to E85. Basically I just need to make the changes to the fuel system that drag racers have been doing for years. Alky carb, changes to components in the fuel system, etc, etc.

[stonebreaker]

Even if the fuel allowed this...........How the hell would it hold together at stock compression rate?
Good point. Still, with 105 octane and inherent alcohol injection, forced induction on flex-fuel cars should become even more attractive than it already is - since the car is "eth-injected" already, you don't have to shell out the bucks for an intercooler or a meth injection system on a stock bottomed car.

Perusing the internet, I was able to determine that the heat of vaporization (evaporative cooling effect) for octane (close as I could get to gas) is about 34 kJ/mol. Methanol was 35.3 kJ/mol, which leads me to wonder if a straight gasoline injection nozzle wouldn't work just as well as meth injection - at least worth looking into; and ethanol was about 39 kJ/mol, meaning ethanol injection should be even more effective than meth injection at cooling the intake charge. I wonder if you would still need to inject it upstream of the throttle body for its cooling effect, to give it time to evaporate?

[ericwilloughby]

Methanol is shit. It has much less energy than Ethanol and destroys-eats parts. It is made from wood some how and no one is using it. Or making it to put in cars.

[stonebreaker]

Methanol is shit. It has much less energy than Ethanol and destroys-eats parts. It is made from wood some how and no one is using it. Or making it to put in cars.
We're not talking about methanol injection, we're talking about the performance potential of E85 since it is 105 octane.

[gillbot]

I do believe you can convert almost any vehicle to run E85. .... Basically I just need to make the changes to the fuel system that drag racers have been doing for years. Alky carb, changes to components in the fuel system, etc, etc.
The key that many overlook is that you need to convert to run it. A few changes need to be made to the system and PCM. I just hate it when I see people saying it's ok to run it with a car that's as is.

[BlkHwk]

How will using ethanol effect your fuel economy. It is my understand that it is almost a 2 to 1 ratio alc.to gas. if converting to alc. You need bigger jets on carb. or would need to be able to flow more fuel on fuel inj. vehicle. Wouldn't your fuel economy be about 1/2 as good as it would be with reg. gas? Plus E85 isn't much cheaper than reg. gas is it?

[FasstChevys]

How will using ethanol effect your fuel economy. It is my understand that it is almost a 2 to 1 ratio alc.to gas. if converting to alc. You need bigger jets on carb. or would need to be able to flow more fuel on fuel inj. vehicle. Wouldn't your fuel economy be about 1/2 as good as it would be with reg. gas? Plus E85 isn't much cheaper than reg. gas is it?

It's definitely not a 2:1 ratio. In many cases, your gas mileage drops by about 10%...and of course, every vehicle is different. Yes on the jets and more flow. In my area, E85 is about 35 to 50 cents cheaper per gallon.

[Packy]

My father in law is a tech nerd and he was filling me in on all of the facts about E85. Looks like we will have to change our fuel filters and lines in some cases. The 1998 models may even have to change their gas tanks out... Overall though it should be a good fuel for us to use especially with boost in mind!:yup:

[86TransAm383]

2 : 1 is the correct ratio for alc to gas. and a 105 oct. im looking forward to 12:1 com. n/a of course for the same price as 92

[FasstChevys]

2 : 1 is the correct ratio for alc to gas. and a 105 oct. im looking forward to 12:1 com. n/a of course for the same price as 92

I can guarantee you, you do not use twice as much alcohol as compared to gasoline. 2:1 is definitely not the correct ratio. The octane of E85 is indeed 105. What am I missing?

[ericwilloughby]

What you are missing is how vague the statements are. Ratio of what to what. A/F ratio of gas is 14.7 to 1. The A/F of ethanol is 7.1 to 1. So the difference between gas and AL is 2-1. It does require much more fuel capacity to run at WOT on AL. But if you don't run 100% E85 or if you can keep your foot off the floor you can use E85 on a stock auto. I've done it. 2000 SS. At 50% E85 you don't even get a check engine light. Over that % and only if you put it on the floor do you get a light because of the lean condition. I got 8% worse mileage. But that was running a somewhat lean condition. I don't have a A/F meter. Also E85 is the same price as gas in Louisville KY.

[ericwilloughby]

Here is what I cant grasp. Twice the fuel per liter of air for AL. If AL had twice the energy as gas I could see getting the same mileage. But it would also provide twice the HP. It doesn't and it doesn't. So why is there only a %10 drop in mileage and 2 % increase in HP. These figures are accurate for a non E85 car and a flex fuel car. Why?

[Goatdriver]

Ethonal is produced from the grain NOT the leaves and stalks. I know this because I farm and grow corn some of which winds up at local ethonal plants. As for octane E-85 is rated at 105 octane. As for the question on mileage I can only speak from experience and in my wife's Tahoe the mileage decreased aprox. 15% using E-85 compared to the 10% ethonal blend with an octane rating of 90. By the way E-85 has been running 40-60 cents per gallon cheaper where I live so this helps offset the decrease in mileage.

[FasstChevys]

Ethonal is produced from the grain NOT the leaves and stalks.

Not right now, but cellulosic methods and technology of producing ethanol is out there and is already happening, but not on a large scale. It could become the wave of the future, and possibly phase out corn as a feed stock in the future.